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Butters
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PostSubject: Re: 2008 High School All-Americans   Wed May 28, 2008 11:29 pm

Hah, this is ultimately why I didn't comment at first. This is a real touchy argument. But to be honest, Wisconsin doesn't have any all american talented players. None. If you want to have a different definition and award it based off that by all means, but if it's a purely lacrosse ability/talent award, then I'm sorry, no one deserves it. Like I said before though, just my .02
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PostSubject: Re: 2008 High School All-Americans   Wed May 28, 2008 11:53 pm

i partly agree with Butters..... i dont think anyone in the state could compete with all-american players from other states... and its hard to give it to just 2 players..... but it would be sweet to see wisconsin get all-americans
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PostSubject: Re: 2008 High School All-Americans   Thu May 29, 2008 1:58 am

You guys completely misunderstand the purpose of all-american nominations -- it is not for the players that are as good as players in other states, but rather for the purpose of giving praise to the most talented players in the state. If we were to wait for players who were comparable to the talent on the East Coast, it would be another 15-20 years until we even got a nomination. So the problem to me is not that we don't have enough players that could be AA, but instead that we have too MANY players that could earn the award. Even if the talent isn't at the highest possible level, we should still give the award because certain players every year deserve their recognition as the most talented players in Wisconsin. For example, every state has All-American selections -- Oregon, California, Texas, etc all have multiple All-American selections despite the fact that they are not quite as talented as players in Maryland, LI, or upstate New York.
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PostSubject: Re: 2008 High School All-Americans   Thu May 29, 2008 2:23 am

Fields, what you're talking about then is All-State, not All-American The point of being All-American is that you are the best in the country. No one in Wisconsin as at that level IMO. Maybe in 5-6 years once the kids that are in the youth programs get more skill and whatnot we might possibly get a kid to that level.

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JordanEC23
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PostSubject: Re: 2008 High School All-Americans   Thu May 29, 2008 2:46 am

I think most of those AA who are from states like California and Texas, etc. are AA because they can play on an individual with the likes of many of the better players in traditional hotbeds. Therefore they are deserving of the AA accolade and their spots on high calibur college teams.
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PostSubject: Re: 2008 High School All-Americans   Thu May 29, 2008 8:36 am

i think they should do all-state selections.... it would look good for those who want to go play college ball
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PostSubject: Re: 2008 High School All-Americans   Fri May 30, 2008 2:16 am

SiouxLax wrote:
The point of being All-American is that you are the best in the country. No one in Wisconsin as at that level IMO. Maybe in 5-6 years once the kids that are in the youth programs get more skill and whatnot we might possibly get a kid to that level.

That's hardly the case. I know and have played amongst numerous All-Americans in the last few years, that truthfully, have left me quite unimpressed. The most memorable being a past Lake Forest (IL) AA that hasn't broken the starting line-up at Michigan as a Junior. Countless other players in more traditional hotbeds that become AA's will eventually attend really sub par MCLA, NCAA DII and DIII programs, while hardly garnering any legitimate collegiate recognition thereafter.

http://www.laxpower.com/all-amer/aa-list-hs.php?SelYear=2007&SelSex=B&SelList=AA

Look at Montgomery County, MD for example. Sure you have Salisbury and Providence recruits, but also an AA goalie from that region attending Christopher Newport. CNU lost to both bottom-feeding Catholic Univ. and Guilford, while getting blown-out by 19 by a St. Mary's (MD) program that had one of it's most disappointing seasons to date.

So what does this all mean? WI sure does have the talent to nominate and recognize two All-Americans this season. For all those who claim the talent isn't there--the scope of your lacrosse exposure is extremely limited, and has most likely never seen the disparity of which I speak...


Last edited by mkexlax on Fri May 30, 2008 2:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: 2008 High School All-Americans   Fri May 30, 2008 2:24 am

I still say that no one in Wisconsin is up to an All-American standard...throw any one player in Wisconsin into a true high school AA game and they will most likely get made a fool of.

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PostSubject: Re: 2008 High School All-Americans   Fri May 30, 2008 2:28 am

"Right....because you have seen every player play?"

Well, certainly more than someone who attends and plays lacrosse at North Dakota...
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PostSubject: Re: 2008 High School All-Americans   Fri May 30, 2008 2:29 am

I'm not sold on that just because the school they go to isn't that great or they don't get to play is a discredit to the quality of their play.
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PostSubject: Re: 2008 High School All-Americans   Fri May 30, 2008 2:31 am

mkexlax wrote:
"Right....because you have seen every player play?"

Well, certainly more than someone who attends and plays lacrosse at North Dakota...

Thanks for the laugh.

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Butters
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PostSubject: Re: 2008 High School All-Americans   Fri May 30, 2008 2:35 am

mkexlax wrote:
So what does this all mean? WI sure does have the talent to nominate and recognize two All-Americans this season. For all those who claim the talent isn't there--the scope of your lacrosse exposure is extremely limited, and has most likely never seen the disparity of which I speak...
Well you make a compelling argument until this point. I feel I have a pretty good "scope of lacrosse exposure" and I've seen these top teams in Wisconsin. There are a handful of kids, and by handful I mean 5-6 that MIGHT touch the bench of a program out east. A decent Maryland/New York JV team would torch any Wisconsin high school team. These are JV kids who are better than our Varsity players here. So I disagree on the idea that we have the talent. But once again, my idea of an All American is of someone who can compete and perform at the highest level anywhere in the country. There is the viewpoint that there's more to being an AA (community service, leadership, basically being that perfect american kid). If you're arguing for that, then that's a different story. But based of pure talent, you're 100% wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: 2008 High School All-Americans   Fri May 30, 2008 2:38 am

Butters pretty much sums up what I was saying...no one in Wisconsin (in my opinion) is capable of playing at an All-American level.

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PostSubject: Re: 2008 High School All-Americans   Fri May 30, 2008 2:40 am

JordanEC23 wrote:
I'm not sold on that just because the school they go to isn't that great or they don't get to play is a discredit to the quality of their play.

You don't have to be, because I'm willing to bet that very few people on this forum have actually watched a HS AA live, let alone played with one. My point isn't that schools merely determine the talent of the player. Rather, there is no universal bar or skill echelon that determines AA. There are far too many players who really are quite average being nominated every season for an honor that creates an aura that is s aggrandized by players in more burgeoning areas like WI. Honestly, many of those players aren't better than the your average WI HS varsity player...
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PostSubject: Re: 2008 High School All-Americans   Fri May 30, 2008 2:41 am

You make a good point, but I feel your argument is sort of saying that there are already too many people AA? Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: 2008 High School All-Americans   Fri May 30, 2008 2:42 am

Also, Wisconsin should be careful what they wish for with these All Americans. Let's say they name two AA's this year. If they don't do well at whatever college they attend, what will people think of lacrosse here? We're trying to prove we can compete and that we belong, throwing around titles like AA won't help that image.
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PostSubject: Re: 2008 High School All-Americans   Fri May 30, 2008 2:45 am

For me personally, I just don't see any Wisconsin player being good enough to be recognized as an All-American. The best Wisconsin player is still only going to be as good as an average or even below average player from out east.

The sport is still too new in Wisconsin and it will take awhile for Wisconsin to turn out AA caliber players. Once more areas get youth teams to start the kids young and better coachs who can teach the players better...maybe then we will be able to get some TRUE All-American players.

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PostSubject: Re: 2008 High School All-Americans   Fri May 30, 2008 2:47 am

mkexlax wrote:
You don't have to be, because I'm willing to bet that very few people on this forum have actually watched a HS AA live, let alone played with one.
I've played against a couple, played with a MCLA AA. I don't know who you are, so I have no idea who you've seen play. But those players were unreal, and left me in shock at how good they were. Not a single player in this state, comes close.
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PostSubject: Re: 2008 High School All-Americans   Fri May 30, 2008 2:50 am

There are a handful of kids, and by handful I mean 5-6 that MIGHT touch the bench of a program out east. A decent Maryland/New York JV team would torch any Wisconsin high school team. These are JV kids who are better than our Varsity players here. So I disagree on the idea that we have the talent. But once again, my idea of an All American is of someone who can compete and perform at the highest level anywhere in the country. If you're arguing for that, then that's a different story. But based of pure talent, you're 100% wrong.[/quote]

"Out East" is so vague. Sure, few WI players would see time on a MIAA or Suffolk County varsity teams. But, there are also numerous WI players who have the talent to play on ID, KY, or TN teams that produce All-Americans too. A good friend of mine was an AA in HS and has admittedly said that in areas like CA or other Western states, AA is a whole lot different than AA in New England or the Mid-Atlantic. It's all relative...
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PostSubject: Re: 2008 High School All-Americans   Fri May 30, 2008 2:52 am

Butters wrote:

I've played against a couple, played with a MCLA AA. I don't know who you are, so I have no idea who you've seen play. But those players were unreal, and left me in shock at how good they were. Not a single player in this state, comes close.

MCLA AA is different than HS AA. MCLA AA and NCAA AA is an entirely different animal, and certainly more illustrious. My argument is that HS AA is losing it's luster...
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PostSubject: Re: 2008 High School All-Americans   Fri May 30, 2008 3:12 am

Well once again you'd have a compelling argument that it's losing it's luster. Some of us still want to believe it means something more.
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PostSubject: Re: 2008 High School All-Americans   Fri May 30, 2008 8:31 am

SiouxLax wrote:
I still say that no one in Wisconsin is up to an All-American standard...throw any one player in Wisconsin into a true high school AA game and they will most likely get made a fool of.

I agree
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PostSubject: Re: 2008 High School All-Americans   Fri May 30, 2008 11:05 am

It loses its luster when you want to call people AA just because that area is able to select some. If you would only select the best players for AA then it wont lose it's luster. Who cares if every single AA player is from a hot bed...that's the way I would expect it to be.

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PostSubject: Re: 2008 High School All-Americans   Fri May 30, 2008 12:07 pm

There is a distinction between the purpose of an All-American selection versus something like an Under-Armour All-American Selection. Anthony, your views of All-American's as illustrious phenoms, the cream of the crop talent throughout the country is something that Under Armour attempts to achieve through their selections of AA. This list is hardly ever accurate and extremely difficult to do successfully, however, over the past two years UA has done a pretty decent job selecting players such as the Brattons (Virginia), Travis Reed (Maryland), Garrett Ince (UVA), etc.

The purpose of the All-American selections that we are being given is not to signify that we have two players that are at the level of the top talent in Maryland or Long Island (honestly, it will take us 20+ years to get to that level), but rather these selections are a distinction that two players earned as being the top two players in the state of Wisconsin. Butters, even if these players do not do well in their respective colleges, that is the fault of the skill of Wisconsin lacrosse, not their own -- they still deserve the recognition because they are the two most talented players in the state of Wisconsin in their year. Like it or not, that is what these AA selections signify, there is no point in not giving the award because we wish that AA meant something else.
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PostSubject: Re: 2008 High School All-Americans   Fri May 30, 2008 12:12 pm

All Conference means you are the best of your conference, All State means you're the best in the state, All American means you're the best in the state, oh wait... lol!
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