2009 High School Season -- Predictions and Banter

The Great Laxby wrote:

Yeah, I actually did. Wisconsin lacrosse is hardly competitive, and Gebhard has dominated All-Star games at numerous recruiting combines throughout the Midwest. Apparently, according to teammates, he was the only Wisconsinite (of the many that attended) to make the All-Tournament team at the Chicago Challenge this winter. After catching glimpses of him last season and at indoor earlier in the fall, he is head and shoulders above all players in the area, including many of the collegiate players on this forum.

Honestly, he can single-handedly win games. The MUHS defense and goaltending, as mentioned in all previous posts, is quite strong (sub 5-6 GAA potential), and with a few 5-6 goal performances, Gebhard will be the turning point in many contests. Keep in mind, great players make the players around them better...

I'm sorry, but even though Gebhard is possibly the best player in the state doesn't mean he can or should be compared to Rabil. The only way I can see that you can be serious about this, especially that he is better than most collegiate players in the state, is by three possibilities.

1. You are Gebahard (which I doubt) and you're just bragging about yourself
2. You are either obsessed, in love with, or sucking up to Gebhard to say he is basically the best lacrosse player of any level in the state
or 3. you're just a huge snob

And I'm in no way saying Gebhard sucks, but the fact that you're saying that he can single handedly take Marquette all the way is amazingly false. No way can one person carry an entire team for an entire season, because he will either succumb to the pressure or burn out by the playoffs. Either way, Gebhard has the talent around him to accompony him so he can be a team leader, but single handedly no one can take his team the whole way. Sorry, but you need to be a bit more rational.

Gebhard's a great player, and while he may have some key goals that help them win, one player CANNOT carry a team to victory time and time again. This is not to say that Marquette is lacking in players that are good, they have an amazing defense this year in Ante Grgic, Dushon and Sam Seramur, and im not sure who Gebhard is surrounded by this year except for his defense, but without a good attack/mid Shaun can't win games by himself.

i carried the verona team by myself for a year until Mr. Storts switched to longpole and Bice figured out how to string a normal pocket....thoughts on if this statement is true or not?

schnirro4 wrote:

i carried the verona team by myself for a year until Mr. Storts switched to longpole and Bice figured out how to string a normal pocket....thoughts on if this statement is true or not?

he speaks the truth. shifty little bastard

The Great Laxby wrote:

Yeah, I actually did. Wisconsin lacrosse is hardly competitive, and Gebhard has dominated All-Star games at numerous recruiting combines throughout the Midwest. Apparently, according to teammates, he was the only Wisconsinite (of the many that attended) to make the All-Tournament team at the Chicago Challenge this winter. After catching glimpses of him last season and at indoor earlier in the fall, he is head and shoulders above all players in the area, including many of the collegiate players on this forum.

Haha alright well it's obvious your lacrosse knowledge is pretty non existent let me clear a couple things up for you. First off, Gebhard is in no way shape or form like Paul Rabil. Rabil was able to take over and dominate games because of his size and strength on top of all his lacrosse skills. The man could swim move anyone, anytime, anywhere. Gebhard is a little child physically, so that comparison is pretty much dead right there. Secondly I elected to bold the portion of your post in regards to him being "head and shoulders above all players in the area, including many of the collegiate players on this forum." I'd love to see the kid in a one on one situation with someone like Storts, or to try match the production of someone like Bice. I've seen the kid play, he has talent but let's see something on the field first. I mean let's be honest, the kid hasn't even made it to the state championship game in a hardly competitive state. Most of those collegiate players on this forum, have been there multiple times, back when Wisconsin was more talented.

I dont want to start an argument with you Butters, I even agree with you that some of the best if not the best players that have come from Wisconsin came within the first wave of players, but I would have to disagree that Wisconsin was overall more talented back then. Yes there may not be any Bice's running around right now, but with the additions of new teams and better coaching not only is lacrosse growing but the competion is becoming alot tighter. Maybe im completely wrong but from what i've seen past and present thats my opinion.

Changing topics, any predictions for goalies this year? I know in Milwaukee MUHS boasts talent with Gradecki, and Arrowhead with DJ. What about the Madison or Bayval conferences?

In Madison, Nick Urumoglu of Verona is solid, as is Tate Fuhrman of Middleton, and Sun Prairies goalie is excellent (if he didnt' graduate).

LancerGK wrote:

I dont want to start an argument with you Butters, I even agree with you that some of the best if not the best players that have come from Wisconsin came within the first wave of players, but I would have to disagree that Wisconsin was overall more talented back then. Yes there may not be any Bice's running around right now, but with the additions of new teams and better coaching not only is lacrosse growing but the competion is becoming alot tighter. Maybe im completely wrong but from what i've seen past and present thats my opinion.

Yes it was. Lets look at some of the the players between '04 and '06, and where they went to school:

2004 Brad Campbell, Mars Hill D2
2004 Jace Rauman, Saint Leo D2
2004 Brad Sollenberger, Whittier D3
2005 Kevin Bice, Goucher D3
2006 Nick Neuman, Ithaca D3
2006 Jaron Klopstein, Fontbonne D3
2006 Alex Panosian, Army D1
2006 Tom Gebhardt, Kenyon D3
2006 Ryan Mayfield, Fontbonne D3

Not too mention the countless players recruited nationally opting to stay local. Storts, Schnirring, and Butters were all players just on this forum that could have played D1-D3 ball. Nick Neuman, is now the starting FOGO for a top 10 Division 3 school, is a second line O-Middie, and was on the front page of the lacrosse section of their website.

There is so many more opportunities for you young guys now. With the advent of so many D3 teams in the midwest, and even a D1 team, you guys can be recruited at a much more casual pace then we could. Plus, because of the success of our generation, we have built a name for the state. Me, Neumann, Gebhardt, and Campbell recorded several goals at the NCAA level, and Bice is now an MCLA All America, and one of the face of the UMLL.

I would be willing to bet that no one in the next five years will be as succesful as Neuman is at Ithaca. Don't tell me i'm putting my eggs all in one basket, I've watched you guys do it numerous times with Gebhardt.

The kid is a great player, but I'm sorry, he isn't better then some of the college guys. There is a huge coaching problem in this state, and I didn't know anything I know now until I went to St.Louis and got coached by D1 All Americans. When that happens to him, then yea, maybe he will be the best the state has ever seen, for now, he's still in high school.

I'm trying my hardest to stay out of this conversation, but I don't think the kid said Ghebart was better than all of the college players in the state. I just don't think you guys need to jump all over him for making one statement. You guys tend to do that when you disagree with something. If he wants to think he's better than all you "Wisconsin all-stars" then let him. Who cares if he's wrong. It's still his opinion and he has every right to think of it like that. Obviously no matter what you say is going to make him feel any differently.

But I also agree with Baer.. Yes, Verona and Middleton were great teams back in the day and still are. But when you say it's the best lacrosse the state has seen, I beg to differ. The number of teams out there now compared to what it was before it outrageous. Instead of having two dominant teams there is many. Wisconsin still has a lot of growing to do, though.

My outlook on this upcoming season..

MALA White...
Waunakee- Graduated slim to none. Lost Grendel on defense who really didn't play last year and Hoeft who is the biggest loss. Also lost their coach but will still do well with all their offensive power. It Mattie gets over flinching at shots he will do well.
Sun Prairie- Sun Prairie always seems to do well. I'm not sure of their losses, though.
Stoughton/Janesville- Both teams lost a lot. Stoughton losing 13 seniors and Janesville losing their leading scorer and goalie it going to be tough for both teams. Stoughton has Transue, Knipfer, Paulson, Vejvoda, Siebel, and Briggs returning which will hopefully give them this spot. Janesville will have Troy back by the middle/end of the season, and also has that one attackmen (st.michael or Maney, not sure) returning.
Stoughton/Janesville
Lafollette- Lost everything almost.

MALA Red-
Middleton- Always a power house. Lost Hummel and a couple others, but will rebound like always. Great D, great middles, great attackmen. Also with the new coach from Syracuse.
Verona/West- Real toss-up with both. Verona lost all their middies, but also has a lot to back it up. West with Elfman, Eli, and Neuman should do good. Goalie isn't too bad either.
Sauk- A step above Memorial
Memorial- typical memorial

I know nothing about the Milwaukee and Bay-Val teams. Only played against Brookfield, Wausau, and Arrowhead during my career at Stoughton.

'09 WI high school lax: better as a whole compared to 2005...better average talent per team, fewer garbage teams. However, no teams come close to the level of talent that Verona or Middleton (one could even argue Madison West) had in '05. I do think we'll start seeing elite teams soon, but those of '05 were special.

Stellar player leading a team to championship: let me use Holy Angels (MN private school) as an example. They couldn't get past the state quarterfinals with a senior class that sent a defender (Derek Michalski) to play D1 at Butler, an attackman (Tony Libera) to play D1 at Maryland, and another attackman (Ryan Hurley) to play D1 at Cornell, where, last year as a sophomore, he finished 3rd in the country in goals scored and 5th in total points en route to a 1st team Ivy League selection. It takes more than one, or in this case, three incredible players to be a championship team, even in highschool.

I'll use my current team, U of M, as another example. Kevin Bice: fast, strong, very intelligent, very experienced, easy on the eyes. I've been a part of several games where, without a doubt, he was the best player on the field. I'm not the only one to notice it. Smart teams key on him...they lock him off, they'll slide quickly to him, etc. He'll still find the net a few times, but we'll be on the losing end of the scoreboard. Great players create a new dynamic for any team, no doubt about it, but it takes more than a single great player, or a great player and a handful of decent players, to be a championship-caliber program.

Look for the BEST TEAM to win it this spring.

Jaron by no means was I trying to take anything way from anyone of those players or their accomplishments. However like Nate said the best teams back then may have been the best teams ever, but to judge a state I think you need to look at more then just the best teams, you need to look at the over all range of teams. Thats what I was trying to say in my first post, so if you misunderstood my point I apologize.
One more quick note, though what i've seen of Gebhardt is limited I feel that he has the potential to be come a very good player, however no one should compare a high school player to a college player, and the opposite applys. College lacrosse is a completly different game then high school so you never know how one persons skill set is going to translate to the next level, but at the same time you cant knock a guy before he ever gets to test his skills at that next level.

I'll be honest, I really didn't expect this to explode like this. Let me clarify. Gebhard is easily one of the best players in the state currently, no objection there. IMO can he single handedly win them anything other than maybe conference? No. No player can, and he really is nothing like Rabil in any way other than he's the most talented player on his team. As for the whole Wisconsin back when and Wisconsin now, there's no argument now the state is better top to bottom. But was Wisconsin more talented then? Yes. Here is the average power rankings for 2005 versus 2008 for the top 5 teams in the state each year:

2005
Verona - 383
Middleton - 787
West - 1060
Appleton - 1133
Sun Prairie - 1161
Avg - 904.8

2008
Arrowhead - 1083
Waunakee - 1425
Wausau - 1532
Sun Prairie - 1659
Marquette - 1689
Avg - 1477.6

The point of an internet forum is exactly what were doing, yes people are going to argue points, and in some cases become passionate about it.

I have no doubt in my mind that the skill level we played at a few years ago will be surpassed soon. And you better believe no one cares more about that development then me, its one of my main motivations in giving my lessons. I want kids in this state to get better. I want to go to high school games with Storts and Jack and see kids on the field and say "Wow, that kid is a great player" or "Damn, this Sun Prairie team would have killed our '05 Middleton squad."

The fact is, it has happened yet., and thats upsetting. I fully acknowledge that yes, overall, the state is better then it was. Are the best teams today better then the best teams of yesteryear? Likely not.

Kids like Garret Field, Gebhardt, Hummel, Bryce Packard, Luke Fass, they are the kind of guys who are going to make that happen, and trust me, be prepared to be shocked when you see how much better these kids get with real coaching experience, but right now, we all know where us old guys stand.

CAGE MATCH!

Guru wrote:

CAGE MATCH!

UFC or WWF style?

Milwaukeelax25 wrote:

Guru wrote:

CAGE MATCH!

UFC or WWF style?

TNA style!!!! haha

anyway, Jaron, from what I've heard, I'd have to agree with you. The top teams of yesteryear were probably the best teams to come outta the state, but as an overall state, now we're better. I'd say that mostly comes from there being more players and therefore a larger talent pool for teams to chose from. But along with you guys from 05, I'd have to think Arrowhead from 07 or 08 (probably07) would be the best team since, and could probably compete with you guys pretty well.

As for the reason why individual teams aren't as good, I have no idea why as I wasn't playing back then. Maybe it's complacency among players thinking 'since we're from wi, and we're not expected to be that good, then we don't have to do anything to preve we're better than that'. Or maybe it's just a worse overall work ethic amongst players (i know I've seen some players with really bad work ethics, mostly gone to smoke more p....I mean college), or maybe there aren't enough coaches out there with enough knowledge. Whatever the case is, I feel wisco is a few years away from breaking out and having the possibility of becoming not necessarily a powerhouse, but maybe a powershanty, or powershack, if you will, where we may not produce the best, but we can produce decent hard working players who can build their way up through their programs, at whatever level they may go to.

As for the Gebhard Conflict (as we may see it with years gone by), Gebhard is an amazing player, but I would not say is he able to carry everything, but with some more great coaching, I could possibly see him being like an MLL backup provided he continues to progress through college and the MLL becomes an stable league and actually makes some growth. However that's all speculation an depneds on too many factors for even make a judgement right now.

You just predicted a Wisconsin high school player will possibly be an MLL backup down the road!?

That is just ridiculous

We loved lacrosse when we played. When I was a freshman at Middleton, we used to rent out a Keva every morning at 8AM just to play, paid with our own money too.

We would go to fields in the middle of winter and shovel them just to get a game of 4 v 4. Nothing could ever stop us from playing, literally. All we would do on weekends is hang out and play lax, talk about lax, watch lax games. There was nothing in life that mattered but it. I think thats why we were as good as we were. There was also a huge camaraderie between all the best teams at the time. We were all friends, and respected all the Verona and West guys when I was at Middleton, and for that reason we wanted nothing more then to kill them.

I think when you guys can get back to loving the game like we did, you will blow past us in skill level. We never had an NCAA team in the state, we never had Team Madison, we didn't have the Badger State Camp (Not until the last of us could only go for a year at most). You kids have so many opportunities, it kills me when some of the best of you opt not to capitalize on them, because we would have killed for it.

One of our motivations for starting this site was to fuel the passion for the sport. Maybe if you guys are thinking about lacrosse enough, you will want to play more. Do it. Get out there and play with your teammates every day, play some catch after school, get a goal in your backyard, hit the wall of the high school, Sign up for lessons with Infinity Lacrosse, whatever, just do something.

Stoughton/Janesville- Both teams lost a lot. Stoughton losing 13 seniors and Janesville losing their leading scorer and goalie it going to be tough for both teams. Stoughton has Transue, Knipfer, Paulson, Vejvoda, Siebel, and Briggs returning which will hopefully give them this spot. Janesville will have Troy back by the middle/end of the season, and also has that one attackmen (st.michael or Maney, not sure) returning.
Stoughton/Janesville


I just wanted to say we did NOT lose our leading scorer

Jaron wrote:

We loved lacrosse when we played. When I was a freshman at Middleton, we used to rent out a Keva every morning at 8AM just to play, paid with our own money too.

We would go to fields in the middle of winter and shovel them just to get a game of 4 v 4. Nothing could ever stop us from playing, literally. All we would do on weekends is hang out and play lax, talk about lax, watch lax games. There was nothing in life that mattered but it. I think thats why we were as good as we were. There was also a huge camaraderie between all the best teams at the time. We were all friends, and respected all the Verona and West guys when I was at Middleton, and for that reason we wanted nothing more then to kill them.

I think when you guys can get back to loving the game like we did, you will blow past us in skill level. We never had an NCAA team in the state, we never had Team Madison, we didn't have the Badger State Camp (Not until the last of us could only go for a year at most). You kids have so many opportunities, it kills me when some of the best of you opt not to capitalize on them, because we would have killed for it.

One of our motivations for starting this site was to fuel the passion for the sport. Maybe if you guys are thinking about lacrosse enough, you will want to play more. Do it. Get out there and play with your teammates every day, play some catch after school, get a goal in your backyard, hit the wall of the high school, Sign up for lessons with Infinity Lacrosse, whatever, just do something.

From that point, I can see exactly why there is not as good of talent in state now as there was then. From what I've seen, a bunch of players like to play but nothing more than that. Most kids I know personally, will put their sticks down for the year once the season ends, and not pick it back up until the next season, except for maybe the occasional toss every few months, and that's it. I've tried to get people to do stuff outside of the season but all I get is, lets do somthing else, we're not in season. Luckily, I;ve gotten my gf into the sport so now I basically always have someone to throw around with, but working up the camaraderie with teammates is pretty hard when they rather do other stuff. So I have to completely agree with you there. I'm all for trying to bring it back to what you guys did, but it's pretty hard when others just don't wanna do stuff.

Btw, where do you hold your lessons Jaron?

I remember back in the day before Madison had any teams, playing in 2 inches of snow. we would play well into the night by driving a car onto a tiny park field and turning the headlights on. The only thing that would stop us was when our mesh finally froze solid and even then sometimes we would continue to play. Nothing stopped us, we would play one on one (because we would only have 2 crosses total) or if we had enough sticks we would play up to 5v5. Sometimes we even had a goalie in front of a PVC hockey net! rain or shine those were some of the best days I have ever had playing lacrosse.

Ok, well I haven’t been on this website in a while, though I guess I just thought I would interject for a second. Now I don’t mean to disrespect any of the past players from the supposed “glory years,” but I just don’t quite agree that the most talented of the glory years are better than the most talented now. Obviously I am biased, just as Jaron, Butters, and the rest are also biased; however I do truly believe that the top talent this past year is definitely comparable to the top talent during the “glory years.”

Here is the list of 9 players that Jaron mentioned heading to NCAA teams from the “glory years”

2004 Brad Campbell, Mars Hill D2
2004 Jace Rauman, Saint Leo D2
2004 Brad Sollenberger, Whittier D3
2005 Kevin Bice, Goucher D3
2006 Nick Neuman, Ithaca D3
2006 Jaron Klopstein, Fontbonne D3
2006 Alex Panosian, Army D1
2006 Tom Gebhardt, Kenyon D3
2006 Ryan Mayfield, Fontbonne D3

Well from last year alone, there were 12 kids recruited to NCAA schools.

Zach Nichols – Detroit Mercy (DI)
Austin Grimes – Wheeling Jesuit (DII)
Tom Casper – Alvernia (DIII)
Alex Smith – Carthage (DIII)
Colton Warner – Carthage (DIII)
Nick Hamachek – Carthage (DIII)
David Hoeft – Carthage (DIII)
Ben Fisher – Carthage (DIII)
Ryan Cynkar – Carthage (DIII)
Rich Poiroir – Colby (DIII)
Myself – Kenyon (DIII)
Joe Botticelli – RPI (DIII)

Just as Gebhard and Jaron put up points during their first years, Casper (2g, 1a in two games) and Hummel (2g, 2a in three games) have put up points in the beginning of their NCAA careers. While no one at this point is anywhere near Neuman’s level or anything, we are all freshmen and have four full seasons to prove ourselves. When comparing the players of the future to the players of old, you cannot compare the current players as they are now to the players of old at their current state. While Bice, Neuman, etc may be significantly better than all current players at their current level, the current players will obviously be significantly worse because all of the collegiate players have three years of college experience on them. I would assume that over the next few years, the current Wisconsin players will prove themselves to be just as good if not better than the majority of the players of the "glory days."

As for Jaron's point on the coaching gap - yes, in comparison to other states their is definitely a coaching gap; however, the quality of coaching and competition has increased dramatically over the past three-four years. This is having a significant effect on the type of players who play lacrosse, as certain athletes who would normally run track or just prepare for other sports in their off-seasons are beginning to pick up a stick. This is manifesting itself in many ways, as not only have the number of high school players in the state increasing dramatically, but their are also more all-around athletes playing Wisconsin lacrosse than ever before.

Regarding Sean, he is one of if not the most talented players in the state and has improved significantly throughout the summer and off-season. Watching his performances while playing for Milwaukee Select, he is starting to solidify himself as one of the most talented players in the history of Wisconsin (there is a reason why he is getting looks from teams ranging from UPenn to W&L). While I would disagree that he is Marquette’s only player (Marquette has a host of defensive talent, one of the top goalies in the state in Gradecki, and a substantial amount of unknown talent at the midfield and attack), I will agree that he has the potential to win games for Marquette. He can put up 5-6 goals a game, and those 5-6 goals a game can be the difference between a win and a loss. While he won’t win the games singlehandedly, he has the potential to be THE player for Marquette that can take them from being a decent team to a very good team.

Much harder in to be recruited to NCAA in 2005-'06 than it is now. I had to send my info to every D2/D3 school out there, and then travel TO THEM to get a look. The response I got from most of them was, "there's lacrosse in WI??" There weren't any local NCAA teams, local camps, and there definitely weren't any local tournaments that legit coaches attended.

If Carthage existed in '05, they could have taken two goalies, four poles, three lines of middies, and two attackmen from the Verona team alone, no doubt in my mind. Those teams are simply hunting for numbers so they can field a squad in the first year. Once they become established recruiters, they'll have an unreal amount of roster turnover among the original classes.

gfields5 wrote:

I will agree that he has the potential to win games for Marquette. He can put up 5-6 goals a game, and those 5-6 goals a game can be the difference between a win and a loss. While he won’t win the games singlehandedly, he has the potential to be THE player for Marquette that can take them from being a decent team to a very good team.

The part I put in bold is the only thing I will disagree with. Assuming the team MUHS is playing against is smart...they will be quick to shut him down. I could see him getting 5-6 goals against a sub-par team...but agaisnt AHS, KM, or a school that has a decent/smart defense I would only expect about 3 from him.

Now the rest of what you said I will agree with.